I thought Bert did pretty well, better than I expected anyway. He played defensively and responsibly (after getting over his spinoramaitis, which still plagues him occasionally).

My impression is it took him a while to learn where the other guys on the team needed him to be, and it took them a while to learn where Bert would be, but after that he was able to make a pretty big impact. And draw defenders away from some of the playmakers.

His output in the playoffs seems to bear this out. I think that next year he should do pretty well.

He isn't the fastest guy, but I don't think anyone expects him to be.

And for the price they have him at, he's a good deal.

I agree, if we can get him back for under $2M, I want him back. He really showed promise, especially later in the year and in the playoffs, to be a nice Holmstrom for the 2nd PP unit. Add in the fact that he is willing to play 2-way hockey and that he was better in shootouts than pretty much everyone not named Pavel Datsyuk, and I'd be happy to call him a Wing next year. I think he'll be back, he really seemed to get comfortable here this year, even willingly talking to the media by playoff time. I think he wants to retire as a Wing.

I agree with everything John W. said, word-for-word.

Agreed. I loved him. And when Chris posted the '44' song I loved him even more.

I think Bertuzzi tailed off towards the end of the season, and his point totals were influenced by playing with superior players. I would only bring him back if he takes 1.25 million or we cant find any one else. I suppose I would mine having him on the roster less if he played on the third line.

The guy was money. Regardless of what he did or didn't do after December, his performance that month was just as important for us getting into the playoffs as our run post-Olympics. Without Bert, we don't get in.

Also, scroll down this list: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=11850.

How many free agents provided more bang for their buck (UFAs only)?

Maybe Max Afinogenov, but he didn't bring Berts determination to play both ends of the ice. Ditto for Prospal.

Eaves brought a lot to the table at 1/3 the cost, but we signed him, so that doesn't count.

I begrudgingly admit Sammy had a decent year but gets paid an extra $1M (for 2 more years) and only produced 9 more pts.

The only other guy I can really think of is Matt Moulson who scored like 30 goals.

Great signing.

In regards to Josh's comment, I've always been confused when people say such things. I mean, shouldn't any mildly decent player's points go up or down depending on who their linemates are?

A truly dominant player might be able to put up good numbers no matter who his linemates are. But good linemates will probably make those numbers even better. For comparison - with all of the injuries we had this year Datsyuk's numbers weren't as good as normal this year, and I don't think it was because Datsyuk himself has lost a step. I just think that his job was harder without consistent line chemistry and so many different players going in and out of the lineup.

Hockey is a team sport after all.

Andrew,

I don't know how fair/relevant to differentiate as I'm about to do, but I'll do it anyways.

11pts/12games, yes. However, only 2 goals (one off his leg...but that is classic 09/10 Bert).

Also, taking out the blow-out game vs San Jose and we're now looking at 6pts/11games, only 1 goal.

I definitely defended Bert for a large portion of the season on other blogs, but looking at the cap situation I don't know if he's the best value. He carried the team in December, no doubt. On the other hand he was pretty inconsistent outside of that month.

When you think about Bertuzzi, and what he should bring to a team, your first thought isn't usually assists...it should be goals. I know it was the playoffs, but after seeing him pot just 2 in the post-season while playing with a healthy cast of characters, I don't know how many we can look forward to next season.

Not that you can ever count on this, but full seasons from Helm, Cleary, Eaves and Miller should easily make up the goals we stand to lose from letting Bert go and there aren't too many players who wouldn't accumulate 44pts playing on the Wings top two lines for most of the season, and many of them would be cheaper than Bert's presumed salary next year.

I thought he did well and provided LOADS of value for the money. He did better and better defensively as the season went along and I would definitely resign him.

Andre in Chi:

Also, taking out the blow-out game vs San Jose and we're now looking at 6pts/11games, only 1 goal.

And Fraznen would have only had 2 goals. Should we ditch the Mule as well?

When you think about Bertuzzi, and what he should bring to a team, your first thought isn't usually assists...it should be goals.

At this stage of his career, he's a better playmaker than goalscorer.

...but full seasons from Helm, Cleary, Eaves and Miller should easily make up the goals we stand to lose from letting Bert go

You're basically asking for another 4 goals/player which is a lot to ask of players who aren't playing top 6 minutes. I expect Cleary to hit 20 next year which is 5 more than this year but to expect 14-15 goals each from Helm, Eaves, and Miller is a bit much.

there aren't too many players who wouldn't accumulate 44pts playing on the Wings top two lines for most of the season, and many of them would be cheaper than Bert's presumed salary next year.

Really? Who?

DetCapC19,

It might have been quicker to just quote the part of my post you agreed with.

First, I would say that this post is about Bertuzzi (UFA), not Mule (UFA...in 2020): a player still recovering from knee injury that managed to post 12pts in his other 11 games.

You mention some of the kids won't duplicate his efforts this year due to a lack of ice-time, but do you really think Todd's gonna see as much ice with the return of Huds and the Wings staying remotely healthy? If they're healthy next year, I don't know if he ever sees the 1st line, maybe not even the second. Bert will be another year older and likely playing on 3-4 lines most of the year. There's no reason to think he outperforms last year, which is why I don't think its a stretch that the RFAs make up the difference.

In terms of better values on the market, since I'm hearing Bert @ $2mil, a quick look here:

http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/2010-nhl-unrestricted-free-agents-by-position/

and you'll find there's better to be had at or below that amount (Prospal, for example).

I like Bert, and I won't be pissed if he's back next year, but that's more a function of me trusting that Holland couldn't upgrade. I think he did very well for himself, and the team, I'm just not sure he'll earn a $2mil contract if he stays.

It might have been quicker to just quote the part of my post you agreed with.

Fair enough.

but do you really think Todd's gonna see as much ice with the return of Huds and the Wings staying remotely healthy?

I do.

If they're healthy next year, I don't know if he ever sees the 1st line, maybe not even the second. Bert will be another year older and likely playing on 3-4 lines most of the year.

I bet he plays right next to Zetterberg all year long.

http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/2010-nhl-unrestricted-free-agents-by-position/

I don't see any. Unless some of those guys are willing to take some massive paycuts.

Prospal blows. He won't work as hard as Bert does on the defensive end. He's not as big. Not as good in the shootout. And not as good at parking himself in front of the net. And remember, we didn't sign him this year when we had the chance. We signed Bert instead.

B+/A-

He was great for us in the playoffs.. just when he needed to be for us. I'd sign him at another year at 1.5M and I'd consider that a steal if we see Playoff Bert.

I wouldn't be so sure we intentionally passed over on Prospal this year. The Hudler situation tied Holland's hands for much of the FA signing period. Prospal might "blow", but he blew to a better pts/game average than Bert this year. Also, not too many people thought Bert would suddenly discover the ability to play defense before this year. Either way, Prospal was just one example of many on that list.

More importantly though are Pav, Hank, Mule, Homer, Fil, Huds and Cleary. That's 7 forwards (assuming Homer comes back) that are likely to produce more than Bert.

In any event, its not really worth arguing over. Like I said, I trust the Wings management enough to know that if Bert is back next year, its because there was nothing better to be had for the money.

I don't care about the price, his productivity, or anything else. He's a play-killer. A turnover machine.

Kick him to the curb, and let him f*** up someone else's offense next season.

I wouldn't be so sure we intentionally passed over on Prospal this year. The Hudler situation tied Holland's hands for much of the FA signing period.

Bert signed one day after Prospal signed. Had nothing to do with the Hudler situation.

...but he blew to a better pts/game average than Bert this year.

In the Leastern Conference.

Also, not too many people thought Bert would suddenly discover the ability to play defense before this year.

But he did, which makes him a better signing for next season than Prospal.

Prospal was just one example of many on that list.

Name them.

if Bert is back next year, its because there was nothing better to be had for the money.

At that price, there probably won't be.

written by Primis, May 14, 2010

Primis - don't make me use this quote function on you too.

Also, not too many people thought Bert would suddenly discover the ability to play defense before this year.

There was nothing "sudden" or unknown about Bert's defensive abilities before this year. He had none. Or such little ability it was negligible. Tuzzi molded himself into the team's philosophy and worked hard to make himself valuable on whatever line he was put on. He wasn't always successful but a player adding a whole new dimension to his game –– several actually, since he parks himself in front of the net now –– this late into a very troubled career speaks volumes about the guy. I also think it's really hard for a slow skater to play our up tempo system but he got better at knowing where to be, as an earlier poster pointed out.

Tuzzi was brought in to be a big presence –– Malik calls him a "Nuclear deterrent" –– create some room for his linemates, and in an ideal world, contribute about 40-50 pts. He did that. At a helluva price too. I really doubt he's interested in being on any other team, takes a $250-$300k raise and continues on.

More important than what any of us think, Kenny seems to like him and what he brings to the team. Tuzzi is coming back. And he'll be a year better.

I like Bert. I think he fits in well with the rest of the team. He may not be a big goal scorer, but when he is at his "A game" he can help generate goals. I would like to see him in the Winged Wheel for at least one more season. I have great faith that he could, if he chooses to, do great things for the Wings.

DetCapC19

Bert signed one day after Prospal signed. Had nothing to do with the Hudler situation.

Good thing I said wasn't sure

Its not my intention to spend the rest of the weekend playing fantasy GM with a $2mil budget, but I'll mention Guerin (if you like net presence), Morrison (if you like playmaking) and Selanne (if you like pts/game).

At the same time, my argument wasn't meant to pivot on Prospal, or any of the others, being the solution to replacing Bert. I've said before that in a cap-friendlier situation I wouldn't mind him back.

That's the real problem though; there's a larger question of how to manage all the existing contracts + RFA raises + Hudler + UFAs. When I hear talk about Nick having to take a cut for the team, the idea of giving Bert, not only an extension but, a raise bothers me. Its cool that we disagree on this, and the points that you and others make are very valid: he provides net presence and has adapted his game to suit the Wing's style better than almost anyone could have hoped for.

I also think we shouldn't pretend like he's a Selke-like defensive forward who can make silky smooth passes while banging in every rebound around the crease. If they end up not being able to sing Eaves or Miller because of this, then I'll actually be mad - seeing as those two would have been nice to have around to kill all the (unfair) reputation calls Bert will take, in addition to his more boneheaded obstruction-ish fare.

I'm thrilled with Bert's season and I think his perseverance deserves a trophy that he'll unfortunately never get. I just don't see him getting the minutes this year (and therefore don't see him surpassing 30pts), and I see his supposed $2mil contract making it more difficult to keep others around.

DetCapC19,

Sorry for the double post, but while you're very adept with the quote feature...you never seem to respond to the questions regarding Bert's contract given the Wing's cap situation, or where he fits in the lineup with 7 forwards who'll outproduce him.

It'd be great to hear your thoughts on this.

Guerin (if you like net presence), Morrison (if you like playmaking) and Selanne (if you like pts/game).

I would call Guerin a wash vs. Bert at best. Selanne isn't leaving Anaheim, so that's moot (although you're right, he is better). Morisson? Are you kidding? He put up worse numbers on a better offensive team and was a healthy scratch in the playoffs. Pass.

...respond to the questions regarding Bert's contract given the Wing's cap situation, or where he fits in the lineup with 7 forwards who'll outproduce him.

The fact that he'll only get $1.5-2M is what this is all about. We need a forward who can score 15-18 goals and 45-50pts at a low price. So, that's how he fits into a team that has 7 players that can outscore him.

I have no problem with the fact that 7 guys making more money than him (everyone outside of Homer making way more) can outscore him. I like the fact that there aren't a lot of players out there who bring his size, his skill, his ability to buy into our system, and his offensive production at that price. That's my argument.

Look, do I have an inexplicable Bert Boner? Yes. Is he still a great value for $1.5M-2M? Yes.

...while you're very adept with the quote feature...

I'm not adept with it. I'm awesome at it.

(my comp is acting up, sorry for switching screennames, this is Andre in Chi)

DetCapC19,

Its not about those 7 being better paid or better values. If we can agree that those seven are going to outperform Bert, how do you justify giving him the icetime that he'd need to crack 40-50pts?

Resigning Lid, Homer, Bert, Afro, Helm, Miller and Eaves @ their '09 numbers = $13.6m, assuming a $56.8m cap next year, that's $500k over the cap. It's also without resigning the following: (UFAs) Lilja, Lebda and Janik; (RFAs) Larsson, Ryno, Ritola and Meech.

I can see that on the one hand, a $2mil savings from not resigning Bert doesn't all the sudden allow the Wings to spend freely, I'm just saying that it complicates an already hectic roster situation. Yes, Lids and Homer could take pay-cuts to help things (or one or both may retire, heaven forbid), but it seems unfair to ask the two UFAs that were more productive than Bert to take cuts...and the Wings still have other roster spots to fill.

I could be terrible at math though, if so please correct me, and I'm getting my numbers here:

http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=15

In that sense you're right. But if Lidstrom comes back at $7.45M, we'll be out more than just Bert as some of those guys will need raises.

However, if we keep all those guys, we'll need to get cheap offense and Bert can provide that.

I seem to recall a stretch, maybe December when Bert was leading the team. He was not able to sustain that but he is a good skater and brings a physical presence Detroit generally lacks. Bert needs to be a little smarter with the penalties but was as good as anybody except maybe Pavel on the shootouts. He is good value for the money and he wants to stay in Detroit. Sign him for another year. He is turning into another Holmstrom in front of the net.

"but it seems unfair to ask the two UFAs that were more productive than Bert to take cuts"

But the point with Lidstrom taking a pay cut is that he's got the biggest cap hit on the team. Asking him to take a pay cut while giving Eaves/Helm/Miller/Hudler etc raises seems unfair too, doesn't it?

Nobody's advocating giving Lidstrom's contract to Bert, are they? They're talking about keeping Bert at roughly the same price. And really, come on, points-wise and playing-both-ends-of-the-ice-wise, you'd be REALLY hard pressed to find a better value than Bert at $1.5M.

And Guerin? Come on. He had the same # of points, comparable +/-, fine. But he also made more $ and is 4 years older than Bert. How is that an upgrade?

Garth,

Nice to see that, despite this being a different Wings blog, we still manage to misunderstand each other.

I think that if you read the whole thread, its pretty clear that I'm more worried about how he fits into the existing pay structure, although I realize I didn't give perfect examples in terms of FAs.

Bert was great for us last year. He played his first full season since 05/06. He carried the team in December at the height of the Wing's injury crisis. I just don't see him getting this ice time this year that allows him to equal last year. That December saw him getting a ton of ice-time on the top lines. Its certainly possible that we'll see a similar situation arise next year, but its just as likely (if not more) that he doesn't have as healthy a campaign. For me, that's a lot of "ifs", maybe too many to justify asking Nick and Homer to take cuts.

As for the RFAs, I'm not crazy about slighting them raise-wise when they figure to be an important core of young players for a long time to come after Bert is gone.

If Nick gets all generous with his cut, that's great. Homer too. And if we're talking about Bert coming back at $1.5m then its not too different than arguing about bringing back Lilja. The thing is though, I'm hearing a lot of "$1.5 is great for a 40-50pt forward", which it is. What I'm thinking is that $2m isn't that great for a 30pt forward. I think there's plenty of reasonable arguments for where he'll fall in that range, so I think I'll leave it at that.

Look, do I have an inexplicable Bert Boner? Yes. Is he still a great value for $1.5M-2M? Yes.

I just wanted to highlight this because it's fucking awesome.

And I'm in the same condom.

But the point with Lidstrom taking a pay cut is that he's got the biggest cap hit on the team. Asking him to take a pay cut while giving Eaves/Helm/Miller/Hudler etc raises seems unfair too, doesn't it?

To be fair and honest? Lidstrom had a subpar year for him this year (by his own history and standards he has personally set), and he's on the wrong side of his career curve. Asking him to take $6m or even $5m/year instead of $7.5m/year hardly would strike me as being "unfair".

No Andre, I understood you completely. I happen to disagree with your argument fundamentally.

Why are you assuming he's going to get less ice time and see his production drop by a third? He had his most success on a line with Zetterberg so it stands to reason that he'll likely be on that same line again next year. Who's going to supplant him on that line? Hudler? Not likely. He's been gone for a year and his big task is going to be to add some scoring touch to the bottom half of the lineup.

So yes, assuming that Babcock and Holland are going to do something stupid like reward Bert's good year with a raise, only to drop him down OFF the line on which he had his most success, then yeah, it's a stupid move. But you're assuming that Babcock and Holland are going to do something stupid, I'm not.

So yeah, I stand by my argument and think that $1.5-2M is not a lot to play for a second line winger who can put up 45-50 points.

written by Primis, May 15, 2010

To be clear, I'm not against Lidstrom taking a pay cut. I hope and expect that he will if he chooses to come back.

My issue was why is the possibility of Bertuzzi getting a ver modest raise being seen as unfar when MOST of the lower-tier guys, with less offensive upside as Bert, not being called out for the likely modest raises they'll be getting?

Overall: C

Beginning of the year Bert: D
End of the year Bert: B

Early in the year people praised him for scoring when he was alongside Datsyuk. Yeah, great, my sister could score 15 next to Pavel. The problem was he took countless stupid offensive zone penalties, turned the puck over like he was allergic to it, and gave up too many neutral zone possessions.

Later in the year he bought into defense, quit trying to carry the play, and started to use his size for the first time in years. Think Holmstrom except not as good in front of the net, but better everywhere else. It paid off huge when he got lined with Filppula and Zets.

Is a pay raise in the cards? I am not sure. His age and injury history can come back to haunt the Wings if they give him more money, but I would not mind seeing him back in the lineup.

Think Holmstrom except not as good in front of the net, but better everywhere else.

+44